Curse

Evil_Greven · Feb 22, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

After watching the clone copies that everyone uses, I sat down and developed a counter to the current fad of Protection/OOB/Boon monks. Despite having Contemplation of Purity and Holy Veil, it seemed to me that otherwise a group tends not to focus on Hex removal, and instead on Condition removal. Thusly, an Anti-Boon build should likely focus heavily on hexes.

While CoP/HV is rather effective against one or two longer-duration hexes, more than that will override their hex-removal capabilities. Guild groups usually also have a Shatter Hex or Inspired Hex mesmer, rather than a Smite Hex or Remove Hex backup monk. Here again, due to the long recasts, mass hexes should easily overwhelm.

Keeping this theme in mind, we must focus on long duration, quickly-recharging Hexes or Area Effect hexes. Curses contains a large number of easily recastable hexes, and of course a couple AE ones as well. However, instead of going for a Mesmer secondary (and easily picked out in a crowd, as well as the relative cast times), it occured to me that Scourge Healing (and possibly Scourge Sacrifice) offers an alternative. Both have a 5s recharge, and 30s duration.

Thusly, here is the build, and explainations:

1. Parasitic Bond - 5e 1a 2r
While rather weak in effect, it is the most spammable of the hexes, and easily usable to cover other hexes. It's also useful to heal yourself.

2. Mailse - 5e 2a 2r
This has the side effect of putting 2 degen on your health. On the other hand, it puts 2 degen on your target's energy, and lasts a very long time.

3. Lingering Curse {Elite} - 25e 3a 10r
This one is the one you use on a monk under heavy fire. Obliterate his enchantments and the healing he recieves. Despite the massive power of this spell, the long cast time and energy is somewhat prohibitive, and you must be cautious how you use it. Cover this with other hexes. An alternative to this might be Wither, but it lacks the Enchantment removal component (however it is more spammable, and has a much longer duration). The Enchantment removal could be achieved (painfully) with Rend Enchantments.

4. Shadow of Fear - 10e 2a 10r - OR - Suffering -15e 2a 20r
Either of these spells serve the purpose of mass AE application. This is to hinder removal of your more potent ones and apply their own useful effects.
Shadow of Fear is less expensive and is more spammable, but has a smaller area of effect than Suffering (which is more powerful, in my opinion).

5. Scourge Healing - 10e 2a 5r
A very potent method for dealing with enemy healing, it is also quite good for applying to multiple targets with a static 30s duration. This should be applied after removing target monk's enchantments.

You will likely want 16 Curses, 10-12 Smiting Prayers, and the rest in whatever (soul reaping or otherwise), as you also have three more slots to play with.

Suggested options for last 3:
A. Scourge Sacrifice - 10e 2a 5r
Similar to Scourge Healing, it's useful against Offering of Blood as they must sacrifice 20% health per use, which makes it very potent. The spammability of it is also useful for reapplication (lasts 16s at 10, 18s at 12 Smiting Prayers).

B. Desecrate Enchantments - 10e 2a 15r
The largest radius of area effect, with naturally high curses and lots of enchantments in play, this will do some massive damage.

C. Faintheartedness - 10e 1a 8r
At 16 Curses, this is going to last 37 seconds... and have a -3 Degen, not to mention the attack speed reduction. While this is a single target spell, it is pretty spammable with its massive duration and relatively quick recharge time.

D. (any resurrection skill)

-Greven

Mandy Memory · Feb 22, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

what about just shattering their boon and diversioning/distracting or something it...then they cant heal much at all...then you can black them out and they do nothing

Hexes are always fun though.

JR · Feb 22, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

1. Parasitic Bond = Meh. Not going to bother me.

2. Malaise = Oh no! I have to spend half a second focus swapping to get rid of it.

3. Lingering Curse = Put up Holy Veil, CoP, gg Lingering Curse and whatever cover yoyu have have had time to put on me.

4. Shadow of Fear = This is supposed to bother me... why?

5. Scourge Healing = ...The Divine Boon bonus that you get using a boon prot does not count as healing. Therefore Scourge healing will do exactly nothing to a boon prot.

6. Scourge Sacrafice = Oh no, another hex I may decide I want to remove! Or I might just leave it there and use a Reversal of Fortune after I use Offering of Blood. Who knows.

7. Desecrate Enchantments = Hmmmmmm no.

8. Faintheartedness = OH DEAR GOD NO! Another hex that gives me tiny amounts of hex degen and no other ill effects! Yes, I might have to remove it off a crying warrior whenever I get tired of his whining... but it is certainly not going to bother me.

In short, no. Please try and appreciate the power of builds you brand "fads" before making half-assed attempts to "counter" them. I don't mean to be offensive, but this thread demonstrates a severe lack of understanding.

You want a fairly decent counter to a boon prot? Run a domination mesmer. As stated shatter/diversion/drain can be an interesting combo to shut down their Boon, but only if they are sloppy. A standard Surge/Burn/SoW mesmer will do the job against 95% of Boon Prots. The other 5% are not really going to be shut down by any single character.

wheel · Feb 22, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

1. Parasitic Bond - 5e 1a 2r
2. Mailse - 5e 2a 2r
3. Lingering Curse {Elite} - 25e 3a 10r
4. Shadow of Fear - 10e 2a 10r - OR - Suffering -15e 2a 20r
5. Scourge Healing - 10e 2a 5r
A. Scourge Sacrifice - 10e 2a 5r
B. Desecrate Enchantments - 10e 2a 15rC. Faintheartedness - 10e 1a 8r
D. Res Sig
-Greven

You have no energy management. This is suicide in a build like this. You may shut him down for a few seconds, but after that, you're stuck regenning while he's able to OoB up and get going again. This is not a build that would scare me as a Boon Prot. Let's go through the skills that would actually affect me in any way at all:

Lingering Curse
3 second cast, interrupt fodder, even by Gale. It's okay prima facie if you don't look at its energy cost or cast time, but we don't operate in a vacuum, so we need to look at that. 25 energy is a lot of energy to dedicate to something that will take max 10 energy to remove (Boon+CoP). It's not sustainable (especially on a character with no energy management), and you're giving the monk a very good trade on his energy with this ELITE skill. You're blowing through 25 energy. He's going through 10. It's a decent skill for its effect, but its cost does not justify its use, especially in your elite slot.

Malaise
This skill is something that is pretty much trash against monks unless you're using it in combination with Mind Wrack and a dedicated Energy Denial mesmer. The reason for this is because it can be dismissed with a simple focus swap. I have a 19 point energy swing that lets me trigger the ending condition for Malaise far before it ends. Good monks will do the same. Focus Swapping > Malaise.

Scourge Healing
Scourge Healing is great in a pressure/hex build because it's fairly spammable except for its energy cost. It's particularly devastating to a Heal Party Caster. Its use in this build is either extremely questionable or decent depending on the rest of the team build. As a single character, this skill fails with its energy cost for its damage.

Scourge Sacrifice
Scourge Sacrifice is not a good choice here. It increases the HP loss to ~100 from ~50. It's not worth it given the duration. 10 energy to cause 50 damage? Keep wasting your energy please; I'll love you for it as a monk.

Desecrate Enchantments
It's got decent damage against a boon prot who's got enchantments up, especially against a MoR boon prot. This would be fairly annoying, but you don't have the energy to keep it up.

Overall, this build would be useful for a skirmish or two, but would be waiting for energy to regen too much for it to be ultimately useful. It needs a little work.

Evil_Greven · Feb 22, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

JR- I've played the build. Extensively. Mass hex use is its BANE.

It has a lot of pluses - condition annihilation, light hex removal, self healing, possibly infinite energy, and very quick cast times that make it difficult to interrupt. It's not susceptible to much. Diversion only really kicks in if you're lucky to catch as he's casting.

The build is much more vulnerable to hexes. Perhaps I'm off on Scourge Healing, but Scourge Sacrifice messes with their Offering of Blood pretty badly.

-Greven

Evil_Greven · Feb 22, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

I won't say I know everything. It is pretty heavy on energy use, but keep in mind that the first two are the ones you'd be spamming. Perhaps it would work better with a Mesmer secondary for energy gain, but I still think heavy hex usage is the key to defeating one.

-Greven

wheel · Feb 22, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

I won't say I know everything. It is pretty heavy on energy use, but keep in mind that the first two are the ones you'd be spamming. Perhaps it would work better with a Mesmer secondary for energy gain, but I still think heavy hex usage is the key to defeating one.

-Greven

Not those skills. Here's some skills that are extremely annoying on a Boon Prot:

Diversion
Mind Wrack
Energy Surge/Burn
Blackout
Shame
Mark of Subversion

Boon prots are good because in general, they're LESS vulnerable to hexes becuase of the Boon+CoP combo. You're going at this the wrong way.

Evil_Greven · Feb 22, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Mark of Subversion and Shame only works on spells, so Contemplation of Purity bypasses it & they'll be removed. Diversion is normally dealt with easily. Blackout doesn't really have a counter, but the Mesmer is put at risk using it.

Energy Denial is likely the most effective, but not entirely with Offering of Blood (and the occasional build with Blessed Signet) or Mantra of Recall and is further limited by recharge times. Additionally, Monk is likely to CoP when Mind Wrack is first cast.

Active interruption is difficult. Offering of Blood, Divine Boon, Contemplation of Purity, and Reversal of Fortune all cast in 1/4th of a second. Mend Ailment takes 3/4th of a second, and Holy Veil takes only 1 second (and is thus the most easily interrupted). The other two skills vary a lot. Signet of Devotion is easy to interrupt (although, not by spell-specific interrupts) but it's also fast recharging and free.

These are the reasons for my conclusion that heavy hex-stacking is the only reasonable way to deal with it. Malise can easily be countered by swapping weapons, but the game causes you to wait a second or so to do it. Two seconds later, you'll have it reapplied. While you're busy with that, you won't be doing any healing. You could remove it with CoP, but then you'd have to recast Boon -- losing 10 energy for the price of 5.

If Suffering wasn't worth the energy, would you waste the energy on Parasitic Bond? While only a mere 4 degen, you could bother CoP'ing another enchantment to get rid of both. 15 energy for the price of 15. Or you could continually heal yourself, I suppose.

Shadow of Fear is a situational hex... perferably you would cast this on Warriors/Rangers, but the AE effect is helpful and can mask others. In combination with an actual mesmer, you would have trouble removing the hex you were *trying* to, continually.

My intentions for this build was a full 8v8 team and Guild vs Guild. Energy, as stated, is a significant problem for this build. Perhaps you yourself would want to spec in Blood and use Offering of Blood instead of Lingering Curse.

-Greven

art_ · Feb 22, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

If you are facing boon prots in arenas as a necro its actually easier just to stack hexes on everyone with a PB on top for each time the monks Holy Veil recharges (10seconds)

Generally i find its much easier to let the rest of the team kill the monk when i play my curses necro, and i just completely shutdown/kill all the rangers and warriors. CA warriors attack through SS, so faction is quick to come by. Even the best monk cant keep up with the healing of a couple of warriors killing themselves with SS.

For GvG monk-killing you're probably better off going an energy denial route.

Quick question to people though, it seems to me that an r/me edenial/blackout ranger can actually be more effective than a mesmer, and obviously less killable*. Is this the case or should i be uninstalling right now?

*and more versatile.

wheel · Feb 22, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

Mark of Subversion and Shame only works on spells, so Contemplation of Purity bypasses it & they'll be removed. Diversion is normally dealt with easily. Blackout doesn't really have a counter, but the Mesmer is put at risk using it.

(On Shame & Mark of Subversion) That isn't a weakness, really (being able to be copped off), because when they're used correctly, you're screwed no matter what you do. They are going to be placed just before a spike hits; if you don't cop them off, they trigger when you try to stop the spike. If you do cop them off, their spike is going to hit before you have time to heal. Plus, when you throw diversion into the mix, they can time your copping off of shame/mark of subversion just around the same time as diversion pops up, and you have cop diverted, and you're thoroughly screwed. That's the power in those hexes. Backfire also falls under that category, when correctly in conjunction with diversion. Your build has little that I am afraid off as an experienced gvg boon prot.

Evil_Greven · Feb 22, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Good luck catching a 1/4th second spell w/ Diversion. And the other monk could just pop Holy Veil to remove one of the offending hexes. I fail to see how one or two hexes can be much of a problem for that monk build.

-Greven

filter · Feb 22, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Not those skills. Here's some skills that are extremely annoying on a Boon Prot:

Diversion
Mind Wrack
Energy Surge/Burn
Blackout
Shame
Mark of Subversion

Wheel speaks the truth. Add some warrior pressure and the boon-prot is done.

Rapture · Feb 22, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

Good luck catching a 1/4th second spell w/ Diversion. And the other monk could just pop Holy Veil to remove one of the offending hexes. I fail to see how one or two hexes can be much of a problem for that monk build.

-Greven

good luck researching and finding out what diversion does? after observing how obsessive a particular monk is with cop its pretty damn easy to throw on a hex they'll want to remove and time a diversion to land on their auto-pilot cop before they have time to think about what happened.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 22, 2006, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Diversion
Mind Wrack
Energy Surge/Burn
Blackout
Shame
Mark of Subversion

You forgot one, signet of humility

wheel · Feb 22, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Signet of Humility, while annoying, is more about pressure than anything. It's not near as devastating as getting OoB or CoP or RoF diversioned just as both sides are weary from battle. even with a SoH guy that sits on your face, he's not shutting you down, just reducing your effectiveness, albeit by a significant amount.

Evil_Greven · Feb 22, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

I know what Diversion does. Are you aware of the cast time differences, even with high fast casting vs CoP?

On the other hand, I actually found a build to combat a Mo/N... but it relies a bit on luck. Warrior/Necromancer, using Spinal Shivers, a Cold sword/axe, and Offering of Blood w/ a +12+15 -1 energy degen offhand. It's an amusing build. The last fight, I interrupted RoF and CoP multiple times until someone Etheral Burdened me

-Greven

wheel · Feb 22, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

Good luck catching a 1/4th second spell w/ Diversion. And the other monk could just pop Holy Veil to remove one of the offending hexes. I fail to see how one or two hexes can be much of a problem for that monk build.

-Greven

Good luck canceling a 1/4 second spell when Diversion hits just before the spell completes. The problem isn't the hexes themselves, it's the interraction with the rest of the build your enemy is using against you. It prevents you from copping off a nasty hex, or you don't get to use cop for a long time after that. It also makes you think. Do I want to cast RoF through diversion when I know that character is going to get killed. Do I have enough confidence in the other monk and the rest of my team to finish this fight soon enough for the sacrifice to pay off? Or, if the dom mesmer is very good, they'll time it perfectly with the spike so that you don't get a choice of not casting through diversion. You'll cast RoF without even realizing that Diversion was on you. When you only have 3-4 spammable skills, you're severely gimped.

You should really watch high end Observer mode matches and watch Dom Mesmers coordinate spikes with stuff like Diversion and Shame. You'll understand what I'm talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

I know what Diversion does. Are you aware of the cast time differences, even with high fast casting vs CoP?

On the other hand, I actually found a build to combat a Mo/N... but it relies a bit on luck. Warrior/Necromancer, using Spinal Shivers, a Cold sword/axe, and Offering of Blood w/ a +12+15 -1 energy degen offhand. It's an amusing build. The last fight, I interrupted RoF and CoP multiple times until someone Etheral Burdened me

-Greven

It's not about the cast times. They will cast it when 1) You don't have time to micromanage the other team's hexers and watch them casting Diversion and 2) You HAVE to cast a spell just after Diversion lands on you. The cast time just makes it harder to use in the hands of a less skilled team, and easier to interrupt.

Don't get me started on Spinal Shivers. The fact that you were able to give anecdotal evidence of you interrupting a couple skills does not make the build good at all. That skill is in extreme need of a buff. The fact that Icy weapons exist doesn't make anyone jump for joy that Spinal Shivers can be worked in on a warrior. It's trash. You'll blow through your 25 energy so fast you won't know what hit you. Even on a Necro, the skill is still extremely crappy.

Rapture · Feb 22, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

I know what Diversion does. Are you aware of the cast time differences, even with high fast casting vs CoP?
-Greven

yes, but if you miss cop and hit the re-boon (the window is decent) you're still taking a nice chunk out of cop arent you? yes, its not the perfect situation but its better than nothing. :P

Esuna · Feb 22, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil_Greven

Good luck catching a 1/4th second spell w/ Diversion. And the other monk could just pop Holy Veil to remove one of the offending hexes. I fail to see how one or two hexes can be much of a problem for that monk build.

-Greven

On contraire to that belief, Diversion catches quick spells much easier that slow casting ones. Mainly because everyone who knows what Diversion does won't cast through it but not if they've already clicked their 1/4th cast time spell or their melee/bow attacks. With 2s or 3s casts, it's easier can stop diversion from hitting - just move and interrupt your own cast. But with a RoF or Guardian, once you cast it, you're pretty much screwed.

Evil_Greven · Feb 22, 2006, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Don't get me started on Spinal Shivers. The fact that you were able to give anecdotal evidence of you interrupting a couple skills does not make the build good at all. That skill is in extreme need of a buff. The fact that Icy weapons exist doesn't make anyone jump for joy that Spinal Shivers can be worked in on a warrior. It's trash. You'll blow through your 25 energy so fast you won't know what hit you. Even on a Necro, the skill is still extremely crappy.

Only 25 energy? The warrior I was using it with had 51 energy, and Offering of Blood to refresh it. It was pretty successful all evening. I need to try it out in 8v8 now, though. A team of all Warriors was able to obliterate 9 in a row with 1-2 monks and assorted other classes (one was a Hammer warrior, so we had double duty interrupting). Another group I was in had 2 Mesmers and a Ranger, and we slaughtered 8 groups including a pair of Boon/OOB/prot. Both of the groups I had with a Monk we made it into the Team Arenas a couple of rounds

I'm by no means saying it's a fantastic build (and probably won't be of much use in GvG), but it's a bit of a novelty, and so far I've had success with it. I shutdown a lot of Mo/N today (not to mention any other casters), and the only thing I'd likely do different is include some block/evade ignoring skill to bypass Ward Against Melee, Guardian, and the like.

I realize the powers of Diversion, but I also like to play Devil's Advocate :P I still think it's not as useful as you guys make it out to be w/ the typical 2 monks / 1 mesmer per team.

-Greven